Can you start with the gut healing foods before you've made it to baseline?

I won't go into too much detail about our situation just yet, but here's the quickie version:

Abraham is 21 months and allergy test reveal that he's allergic to soy, egg white, peanuts, cod fish, and wheat. This test was done at about 17 months because he'd been reacting to various foods with red splotches around his mouth/face, and to cow's dairy when I consumed it and nursed him (by spitting up excessively). Interestingly, dairy didn't show up on the test, so I guess this means it's a "sensativity" rather than an allergy, right? After removing all of those things from both our diets, he improved but never got to baseline as far as the red splotches, loose/frequent poops, occasional red ring, and irritability/poor sleep were concerned. KBrown from MDC suggested removing corn, and after almost a month without any he's improved even more.

However, we're still not at baseline. His poops are better formed, but still have some undigested food in them, no red ring lately, mood and sleep have improved a little, but he still gets the red splotches (during most meals but sometimes just randomly). The sites of the red splotches are dry and chapped looking for a few days after. Is this eczema?

We had started on gut healing things like probiotics, bone broth, epsome salts, vit c, cod liver oil, etc back when he was about 13 months (before official testing but due to the dairy issue and face splotches, I knew there was a problem and found info on MDC). I'm guessing that it was through this that he got sensatized to CLO because how else could a child who'd never eaten it (nor had his mother) test positive for cod fish allergy?

This brings me to my main question (for today anyway). What of the nutrient-dense foods from Pats AWESOME list in her thread with Laura can we safely incorporate right now, when we still don't know what exactly is causing Abraham's red splotches? Can he get healing benefits from things that he's not able to digest properly or that he reacts mildly to? Take saurkraut for example. I made my own, he loved it, but his face errupted in red spots immediately.

We're still nursing, so both our diets are really limited right now. We eat a grass-fed meat (chicken, turkey, venison, lamb, or ostrich), broccoli, and some form of rice (flour, milk, noodles, whole grain soaked with ACV). Olive oil and palm oil seem to do better than coconut, but I'd love to get this back in if we can - so yummy. I always give him the meat first to see how he'll do, and so far he's done fine with everything the first round (except for some recent vegetarian-raised chicken and we're guessing it was corn or soy fed), but when I give him leftovers the next day, sometimes he reacts with the splotches. He never gets the splotches from nursing, but I don't feel this necessarily means that he's not reacting to things via my milk. It could just be more subtle/delayed/different.

Me:
Murcury fillings - 6
Yeast infections - chronic
Headaches - formerly chronic, now just frequent
Mood - history with mild-moderate depression/anxiety, PPD was pretty bad
Birth/Post Partum: may have bled too much, took 16 months to get period back. Very fatigued. Saw accupuncturist who helped build back blood. Felt very depleated in general. Teetered on low milk supply.
Gluten/wheat - end of pregnancy I could NOT eat wheat without getting horrible reflux. HCL helped, but i ultimately removed it and felt much better. postpartum it was fine again (or was it)?
ABX - when DS was 11 months old
Topical Steriods - when 5 months pregnant for terrible systemic poison ivy/oak reaction

Abraham:
Fussy-ish baby, not colic.
POOR SLEEPER, used to wake every 45 minutes, much improved since then.
ABX - once when he was 11 months - reacted with hives after biting into a plastic toy on day 4, quit immediately.
Disposition: very affectionate and bright, but gets terribly frustrated easily and hits himself (maybe this is normal?)
Formula supplementation: at 5.5 months he got cow's milk formula about 10 times total due to my PPD/depleation causing a huge drop in my supply.

A couple other questions:
I've been on zinc for almost a year, and we still fail the beet test. Is this cause for concern? Do I need to increase it? Give it to him directly?

Vit C - found a good, corn free one, but need ideas for how to give it to DS. How much? opening the capsules into things makes them very tart, and we don't have a lot of drink options right now (this gets back to whether or not we should expand our diets in spite of mild reactions in order to heal).

Any recommendations for soy, gluten, wheat, dairy, corn, fish, nut free whole food supplements? I was doing Vitamin Code's RAW Prenatal, but when I contacted them about corn (lable said it was free of all others) they said they didn't use it directly, but couldn't verify it's absence totally.

Ok, I said this was the quickie didn't I. Sorry! Just wanted to give as much info as possible so that you could get a good picture of what's going on.

Thanks,
Abby

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That was the quick version, I know, it is a looonnnnggg journey. {{{hugs}}}

I knew you had mercury fillings by the third paragraph. I haven't finished reading. But, I have some thoughts to toss in. CLO often has soy as the vit E additive. He may be reacting to that. I'd consider trying fermented clo, which is naturally produced, no additives. I get the one without the natural rosemary preservative even. Or consider salmon. I lived on salmon (and sweet potatoes) when ds was a baby.

Personally, I believe it is more important to ADD nutrients to optimize detox pathways, (while binding your mercury and keeping adequate calories to prevent rapid weight loss) than to get to "baseline". Not everyone agrees with that theory. And conventional GI doesn't believe it is even possible to get to baseline or to identify all the culprit foods, so 'why bother'.

Also, his reactions could be die-off, cause certainly he has mercury and candida issues alongside yours. (we're in the same boat here, sorry.)

I'd be concerned with the amount of rice you are consuming. It is high in arsenic and often causes a sensitization due to large exposures. Generally, an allergen doesn't cause an issue until the second and subsequent exposures. I would not expect a reaction from first trials. Consider buckwheat or grain-free as alternatives.

Personally, I'd add the sauerkraut juice for both and LIVER and green juices. I'd just start adding a gut healing measure each week and focus on ADDing nutrients. Hives, I worry about. But, red cheeks, I'd ignore, unless it occurs within 2 hours of exposure.

Check, I doubt your vit C is corn-free. Does it have citric acid? I don't believe that CS ever found a corn-free vit C. Maybe she did. But, it is hard to avoid corn in supplements.

Do the Epsom salt baths, molybdenum and dark leafy greens- smoothies are great.

Are you doing vit c yourself? And selenium? Two Brazil nuts a day. What about kelp? These all help to bind mercury excretion.

Consider Evening Primrose Oil for moods, along with magnesium (bone broths are great) and Food Folate!!

Green smoothies would be great for energy and mood balance, ime.

Have you considered classical homeopathy?


*I* would add 1 teaspoon of homemade RAW goat's milk (or possibly raw cow dairy) kefir daily, unless IgE to dairy. Or water kefir immediately. No kombucha for either of you until a year or so down the road, imo. And give to baby first. But, not you while you are nursing. What probiotics are you doing?




Pat
I've found these 2 corn free vit. C's--I'm thinking of getting the sodium ascorbate powder to sprinkle on our food (I've been told it tastes like salt). I've taken the Twinlabs myself and not seen a reaction in my nursing ds, but he still hasn't gotten supp'd directly...

http://www.nutribiotic.com/ascorbic-acid-sodium-ascorbate-8oz.html
http://www.vitapal.com/v-twinlab-allergy-c-buffered-corn-free-1500m...

Pat, are goji berries a good whole food source of vit. C? We've been having those as well over here and I'm hopeful their filling that need...

As far as a whole food multi that is corn free, I personally have NOT found one. :( That is a major reason I came to heal-thyself in the first place--b/c I could not find actual supp's that my ds didn't react to. But I have felt really good using whole foods as 'supp's'. Most of what I've learned has been from Pat here and on MDC. My current personal supp list is here: http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showpost.php?p=14553671&po... (MOST of it is lifted from lists made by Pat, just fyi! ;)

Oops--I see that is what you are writing here for anyway, to find what you can add. I found adding all of the foods recommended to me on that list (we are gluten, dairy, corn, soy and were egg free) except for egg yolks and the goat milk kefir (at first) helped us *tremendously*! And we had gotten to baseline at one point, but I was seeing more reactions to new and random foods, so that is why I posted here for help. We were totally NOT at baseline when we started supping w/ the whole foods.

I would try to avoid things that cause major problems for your ds (clear reactions) and slowly add in everything else. After adding these supps and doing homeopathy (probably over the course of 2-3 months or less) we were actually able to add back in eggs w/ NO reaction! (We eat eggs daily now, I am SO thrilled to have them back.) I'm hopeful we'll trial dairy in the not too distant future w/ positive results as well. (I've been overly cautious w/ this one...I think we'll do well adding it in in the near future!)

So, my vote would be to add as much of the healing whole foods as you can, slowly! The probiotic foods are powerful, as is coconut oil (and all of them really ;). (I would be cautious w/ the lemon juice and kombucha *for you* if you're still nursing (super mobilizing!) I cannot express how helpful to our healing adding in Pat's whole food recs. has been--seriously, life changing.

Good luck!! I'll keep my eyes peeled for updates here!

Lauren :)
I've read that goji berries were high in vit C. I've also read that a laboratory evaluation determined that they were LOW in vit C. :shrug

We like chocolate covered goji berries here. :-) And I have plain ones in my 'trail mix'.


Pat
Pat Robinson said:

Personally, I believe it is more important to ADD nutrients to optimize detox pathways, (while binding your mercury and keeping adequate calories to prevent rapid weight loss) than to get to "baseline". BTDT with the rapid weight loss. We went on TED for almost 2 weeks in March and everything started falling off me.

BR>Also, his reactions could be die-off, cause certainly he has mercury and candida issues alongside yours. (we're in the same boat here, sorry.)

Sorry for the rookie question, but what's "die off"?


I'd be concerned with the amount of rice you are consuming. It is high in arsenic and often causes a sensitization due to large exposures. Generally, an allergen doesn't cause an issue until the second and subsequent exposures. I would not expect a reaction from first trials. Consider buckwheat or grain-free as alternatives.
Oh dear, no rice? So, cut back on rice or cut it out totally? I did feel that the amount we were taking in was too much, but I don't know what to eat/drink. Noodles are so key for a toddler, as is rice milk (think cereal). I like almost anything that's good for me, but I just can't handle buckwheat. Any recipes to make it palatable would be so appreciated.


Personally, I'd add the sauerkraut juice for both and LIVER and green juices. I'd just start adding a gut healing measure each week and focus on ADDing nutrients. Hives, I worry about. But, red cheeks, I'd ignore, unless it occurs within 2 hours of exposure.
Just to be clear, theses are red spots around the mouth, about dime-sized and warm to the touch, and always immediately after eating an offending food. I don't think they're hives because they don't become raised (although he does sometimes have very small hives around his neck and ears, but usually not around meal times). Does that change anything about your concern over these reactions?


Check, I doubt your vit C is corn-free. Does it have citric acid? I don't believe that CS ever found a corn-free vit C. Maybe she did. But, it is hard to avoid corn in supplements.
I use Twin Labs, and he seems to do ok with it when I give it directly to him. It's just the taste he has trouble with. How much for a 25 lb kiddo?


Do the Epsom salt baths, molybdenum and dark leafy greens- smoothies are great.

Are you doing vit c yourself? And selenium? Two Brazil nuts a day. What about kelp? These all help to bind mercury excretion.
Oh, and I was once taking the same Vit C in high doses, along with elevated doses of B6 (for mood), but my milk supply plumetted. I read in this awesome book http://www.mother-food.com/ that Vit C and B6 can sometimes be the culprits. Because he was still almost exclusively BFing at the time, I couldn't do that. Now I can take the Vit C again, but it's probably going to make my milk dry up almost entirely . . . :-( What's selenium? We do ES baths a lot, and I love leafy greens. Brazil nuts . . . gonna have to find a few to test it out.


Consider Evening Primrose Oil for moods, along with magnesium (bone broths are great) and Food Folate!!
Yay, EPO has become my new best friend! Postpartum periods = more cramps than ever before, and EPO has helped sooooo much.


Green smoothies would be great for energy and mood balance, ime.

Have you considered classical homeopathy?
I'd definitely do homeopathy. We're going to see a CST tomorrow, and possible a naturopath in a couple weeks. Any idea how to find a good homeopathic in Vermont?



*I* would add 1 teaspoon of homemade RAW goat's milk (or possibly raw cow dairy) kefir daily, unless IgE to dairy.
Eek, no IgE that I know of, but red ring, diarrhea and uber fussiness followed our last attempt at goat's milk (yogurt).


Or water kefir immediately. No kombucha for either of you until a year or so down the road, imo. And give to baby first. But, not you while you are nursing. What probiotics are you doing?

I would LOVE to start kifer water, cannot wait! Probiotics are from GI Pro Health. He's on the infant one, I'm on G x12 or something like that.





Pat

Thanks sooooo much for all of the feedback. I feel a little better about moving forward with things now. I'm still struggling with knowing what to do if he starts reacting more or going back to having whole food in his poops, or loose poops at all. Any thoughts on this?

Oh, and a side note, I think he might have chemical sensativities. Today while working outside with me he picked two apples up off the ground (they'd fallen from our VERY old and neglected tree) and ate them. No reaction. Later today he was at my MIL's house and grabbed an apple and bit in, and he immediately errupted in red splotches all over his chin. Her apples are not organic. What do you think?

Thanks again! I am the kind of person who needs a "plan" so over the next few days I think I'm going to put something together and then maybe run it by you wise ladies to see if you think it is sound.

Abby
Ok, we're almost a week into our new regimine, and things are going pretty well.

Goji berries, brazil nuts, coconut oil, extra vit C where we can, amazing fermented veggies, bubbies pickles, probiotics, epsome salts baths daily. Bone broth almost daily.

Haven't quite worked our way up to greens smoothies yet, although we eat greens with our meals. Still looking for water kifer grains and fermented CLO too.

I'd love some meal suggestions that don't involve rice or other grains. Right now breakfast seems the trickiest without grains, but I'm sure that can change, I just need ideas. Dinners are usually roasted chicken, or sometimes ground free range turkey/beef/venison/lamb, veggies steamed, pureed, or roasted, an occasional wild caught salmon filet, and some rice or quinoa. I'm not a huge salad person just because I end up starving in a half hour, but I can't think of what else to make that would balance out my meal (palate-wise).

Oh, and garlic seems to really bother him :-(. I LOVE garlic.

Still seeing some major red splotches sometimes, but not nearly as often. His poops are looking SOOOOO much better! His sleep is continuing to improve.

Are there any foods that we should definitely avoid (besides, obviously, the one's Abraham is allergic/sensative to)? Of course, processed junk is not even on the menu, but I didn't know if there were certian types of foods or beverages that would be counter-productive to clearing our detox pathways.

I do seem to experience random waves of nausea from time to time. Either between meals or just after. Not even possible that it's morning sickness! Could this be related to detoxing? I don't have an overall loss of appetite, just these 5 minute bouts of nausea. Abraham often gets super fussy right after he eats too, just for 20 minutes or so. Could this be the same thing? It's possible that his is just boredom from having had to sit in his seat for a whole meal (this child does. not. sit. still.).

Thanks again for all your help!
Sounds like you're making lots of progress! YAY!

What about turkey sausage patties (homemade) for breakfast? Maybe w/ fruit?? Is there a way you could do some kind of homemade yogurt w/ berries etc.? You mentioned no coconut--coconut milk makes pretty good yogurt. Some folks use almond milk or other nut milks to make yogurt (although nuts are tricky!)

As far as the starving after meals go, are you getting enough fat? Fat is really satiating, and the more you can get the better! Cooking the meat w/ skin on etc. can be helpful here. Also, I think *some* folks can handle coconut oil even if they can't handle straight coconut--but I am so not sure on that, so look into it if you might want to try that. You can make all sorts of candies/treats w/ coconut oil that are really filling and soooo yummy!

How are you w/ legumes? We love peanut butter here and sprouted beans of all sorts, and you can actually use cooked mashed beans in place of grains in lots of recipes (including muffins and cookies etc.) Maybe you might find some sort of bean based method for making breakfast muffins or pancakes, w/out grains? Here is blog that utilizes beans in these ways: http://healthyindulgences.blogspot.com/2009/05/healthy-chocolate-ca... (Not sure if you can use egg yolks, but perhaps you could use them in place of whole eggs in some recipes, maybe combined w/ flax goo?)

Also, I found the yahoo group vegan-and-gluten-free sooo helpful when we first dropped gluten, dairy and eggs (and corn and soy). Lots of allergen free ideas there, esp. for side dishes and baked goods... groups.yahoo.com/group/Vegan-and-Gluten-Free

Ooo--the blog http://www.everythingfreeeating.blogspot.com/ focuses on traditional foods from an allergy free perspective--she uses eggs though as well, just fyi!

Oh, oaother source of recipes that often avoid allergens is the Cooking Traditional Foods forum. http://www.tfrecipes.com/forum/

Here's another one that is full of allergen free, nutrient dense recipes: http://www.nourishingmeals.com/

And here is a book that I wish I had when I first learned about all this stuff: http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Necessity-Gluten-Casein-Recipes/dp/097...

Ok, I think that's enough links for now. ;) HTH!
Thanks for the food ideas! Doin the turkey sausage, greens smoothies, and lots of beans.

Things have been going pretty well. He still gets the ugly patches on his face with almost every meal. Interestingly, if it's just his rice cereal or something else like that he doesn't get them, but the tastier the food, the worse his face looks. It's definintely not topical, however, because he's beyond the phase of smearing everything all over his face. I worry that by allowing him to continue to eat whatever it is that's causing this that I'm allowing repeated exposure and that he'll become more sensative, but I'm really enjoying the bredth of our diet right now. And, there's been no red ring or diarrhea, and his mood has really improved.

That said, we've had a recent set back and I don't know what caused it. Red ring the past two days, super clingy/fussy/irratable, and very loose poops. I've narrowed it down to two possible things. Cookies I made that had molasses in them (hadn't trialed this before but didn't think it would be a problem) or water Keifr :-(. I just got the water kefir grains from the kefir lady and made some. I love it and will be so bummed if it doesn't work out.

Has anyone heard of water kefir giving anyone a problem?

Also, I have terrible dandruff. Any ideas what the cause of this is? It's been going on forever, and I thought that it must be connected to my general defficienies, but there has been no improvement over the past few weeks inspite of my other micro improvements in health.

All the best during the holidays.

Abby
I'd be concerned about the skin reactions and try to food journal to isolate the commonality. However, when introducing kefir, some folks have 'die off' detox reactions such as transiently increased eczema, insomnia, restlessness, irritability, etc.

I'd decrease the kefir (to 1 teaspooon) and slowly increase the amount over several months. All the gut healing foods could open detox pathways. Skin is a detox pathway (as is breastmilk). So, gradually introduce and increase the healing foods.

The biggest allergens are
* Milk
* Eggs
* Peanuts
* Tree nuts (such as almonds, cashews, walnuts)
* Fish (such as bass, cod, flounder)
* Shellfish (such as crab, lobster, shrimp)
* Soy
* Wheat

Mold
Dust mites
Pollen
Pet dander
Latex
Insect stings
Seafood


Biotin helps dandruff, but it kills candida and releases toxins. Coconut oil topically could help, though.


Pat
Thanks Pat! Would die-off cause the red ring too? I was definitely giving him much more kefir water than 1 t. Now what to do with all this extra kefir that keeps coming?

He is allergic or sensative to Milk, egg whites, peanuts, cod fish, soy, wheat, and corn, but no amount of journaling seems to get to the bottom of the red patches on his face. They show up with a meal around his chin and cheeks, are dime-sized, then they fade in about 10 minutes. If they were very red the skin will be dry and irritated looking for a day or two. Sometimes he'll do find with a meal, but react to the leftovers from the same batch when he has them the next day. Somedays he'll get them from a banana, a few days later he'll do fine with another banana from the same bunch. I was also very concerned, but I was down to rice, broccoli, and chicken for weeks and they didn't totally resolve 100% of the time and I couldn't keep going on that diet any longer. I keep hoping that as his gut heals the face stuff will resolve, but so far it hasn't. It's winter here in VT, so it's very dry (which only irritates the skin more).

Have you heard of anything like this before? Any explination for this intermittent face stuff?
Couple of thoughts come to mind.

When there is a lot of die-off, the stool is often more acidic and could cause inflammation (red, sensitive, irritated, rawness) around the anus. Usually, the red ring is dairy associated, from my observations.

The reaction at meals could be Oral Allergy Syndrome? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_allergy_syndrome

Reacting to left-overs but not the original meal is often a mold sensitivity.

There is a "bucket effect" to allergens. As allergens from many sources start to "fill the bucket", when it is overfull, the allergic responses overflow with visible reactions. Environmental allergens could be a variable adding to the "bucket".


Pat
What a great discussion and kudos to your dedication! Changing our foods can be an overwhelming experience until we start to see results we like. Yes, gogi's are good for vit C and are considered a superfood. Pat already listed a lot of fantastic suggestions. I personally would also add in a lot more greens. My kids love 1 pinapple, 1-2 bananas and 2 huge handfuls of spinich. Blend and enjoy. For breakfast, we do a lot of melon and fruit or put a bag of frozen strawberries in the food procesor with a little water and some maple syrup. Process it until it is super smooth like sorbet.
You may also want to look into raw foods. I have loved being on raw foods and found it widened my food choices when I felt like I couldn't eat anything. It was like a whole new world opened up and I feel healthier than I ever have. Just a thought.
Just browsing through tonight. The book I just read The Yeast Connection Diet seems like it might help you, Abby. Perhaps, since this post was a while back. Hope you are making some progress.

-Rachel

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